Quote Investigator® – Tracing Quotations

Saying Origin: You Can’t Live With Them, and You Can’t Live Without Them

Henry Ward Beecher? William James? Upton Sinclair? Peggy Hopkins Joyce? Metellus Numidicus? Frederick Reynolds? John Dryden? Robert Bell? Della E. Stewart? Anonymous?

**Silhouette of a couple sitting back-to-back**

Question for Quote Investigator: Maintaining relationships is difficult. One must accommodate the needs and desires of people who are sometimes confusing, annoying, and ungrateful. Yet, these complex human connections produce happiness and fulfillment. Here are two versions of a pertinent saying:

(1) You can’t live with ’em, and you can’t live without ’em.
(2) We cannot live with them; we cannot live without them.

Would you please explore the provenance of this saying?

Reply from Quote Investigator: QI has found instances in this family of statements which refer to women, men, neighbors, wives, wicked people, and Irish people. The saying is difficult to trace because it can be expressed in numerous ways. Below is an overview with dates and attributions, beginning with partial matches.

177 AD Precursor: Set quoniam ita natura tradidit, ut nec cum illis satis commode, nec sine illis ullo modo vivi possit (English translation from Latin: We can neither live very comfortably with them nor at all without them) (Remark about wives attributed to ancient Roman statesman Metellus Numidicus by Roman writer Aulus Gellius)

1624 Precursor: We can neither live with them without inconvenience, nor without them at all (Remark about wives attributed to Metellus Numidicus by English writer Thomas Heywood)

1709 Precursor: But since we cannot live without ’em; Take ’em with all their Faults about ’em (Remark about women by an anonymous person; later incorrectly attributed to French poet Jean de La Fontaine)

1797 Precursor: That, let us rail at women, scorn, and flout them, We may live with, but cannot live without them (Remark about women from playwright Frederick Reynolds in “The Will: A Comedy”)

1875 Dec 15 Precursor: He was converted, and instead of “We can’t live with them,” it was, “We can’t live without them” (Remark about black customers by George S. Paine)

1882 May 09: We can’t live with them and we can’t live without them (Remark about Irish people attributed to clergyman Henry Ward Beecher)

1883 Oct 22: We can’t live without them or with them (Remark about Irish people attributed to clergyman Henry Ward Beecher)

1885 Jun 24: We cannot live happily with our wives, yet we cannot live happily without them (Remark about wives attributed to Metullus (Metellus Numidicus))

1887 Jun: Though in a general way he cannot live without them, yet, as regards certain individuals, it often falls out that he cannot live with them either (Remark about humans living in tribes by psychologist William James)

1888: You cannot live without them, but you ought not to live with them, nor seek their society (Remark about “the wicked” by Father John Crasset)

1892 Mar 18: We cannot live with them and we cannot live without them (Remark about women by Adiel Sherwood)

1905: You can’t live with them, and you can’t live without them (Remark about wives in a humor book compiled by Harry L. Newton)

1920 Mar 09: We cannot live without them, but how hard we sometimes find it to live with them! (Remark about men by columnist Della E. Stewart)

1926 Jun 30: Neighbors! we can’t live with them, and we can’t live without them (Remark about neighbors by Mary Caroline Davies)

1927: You can’t live with ’em and you can’t live without ’em, and what sort of a mess is it? (Remark about sex in the novel “Oil” by Upton Sinclair)

1930 Mar 02: You can’t live with them, and you can’t live without them! (Remark about men by Peggy Hopkins Joyce)

Below are details for selected citations in chronological order.

Adage Origin: Quacks Are the Greatest Liars in the World, Except Their Patients

Benjamin Franklin? Benjamin Rush? Doctor Thibou? David Pitcairn? William Wadd? George G. Sigmond? Anonymous?

**Items used to care for medical patients from Unsplash**

Question for Quote Investigator: Charlatans who provide fraudulent medical advice and dubious nostrums have afflicted humankind for centuries. Misguided patients often boost these deceivers the most. Here are two versions of a pertinent saying:

(1) There are no greater liars than quacks, except for their patients.
(2) Quacks are the greatest liars in the world, except their patients.

This saying has been attributed to U.S. statesman Benjamin Franklin, U.S. physician Benjamin Rush, and Scottish physician David Pitcairn. Would you please explore this topic?

Reply from Quote Investigator: A conversation about quacks between Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, and Doctor Thibou was described in a diary entry written by Rush which was dated September 22, 1788. The saying under examination was mentioned, but the attribution was anonymous. The word “liars” was spelled “lyers”. The term “physic” meant the practice of medicine or healing. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:¹

Waited upon Dr. Franklin with Doctor Thibou, of Antigua. The Dr. said few but quacks ever made money by physic, & that no bill drawn upon the credulity of the people of London by quacks, was ever protested. He ascribed the success of quacks partly to patients extolling the efficacy of the remedies they took from them, rather than confess their ignorance & credulity, hence it was justly said, “quacks were the greatest lyers in the world, except their patients.”

Rush’s 1788 diary entry appeared in “The Pennsylvania Magazine of History and Biography” in 1905 within an article titled “Excerpts from the Papers of Dr. Benjamin Rush”. QI believes that this diary entry is credible; however, QI has not yet seen scans of the handwritten diary entry.

The passage is ambiguous. The “Dr.” in the second sentence might refer to Franklin or Thibou. Thus, the adage about quacks may have been spoken by Franklin or Thibou. There is a third possibility; the saying might have already been known to Rush, and he simply added it to the diary entry because it fit the context. Nevertheless, the adage is usually linked to Benjamin Franklin. Interestingly, the prefatory phrase “it was justly said” signaled that the attribution was anonymous.

Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.

Quote Origin: The Most Common Way People Give Up Their Power Is by Thinking They Don’t Have Any

Alice Walker? Rhona Raskins? William Martin? Apocryphal?

**Group of people in silhouette from Unsplash**

Question for Quote Investigator: People have more power than they believe, but they must be willing to exercise it if they wish to achieve their goals. Here is a pertinent saying:

The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don’t have any.

This statement has been attributed to U.S. novelist and poet Alice Walker, but I have never seen a precise citation. Would you please explore this topic?

Reply from Quote Investigator: The earliest match found by QI appeared in a syndicated column written by Canadian clinical counselor Rhona Raskins in December 1999. The quotation appeared at the beginning of the column:

Quote of the Day: The most common way people give up their power is by thinking they don’t have any.
Alice Walker

The column appeared in Canadian newspapers such as “The Edmonton Sun” of Edmonton, Alberta¹ and the “Times Colonist” of Victoria, British Columbia.² Unfortunately, Raskins did not state where she obtained this quotation. QI has not yet found a citation for a book, essay, interview, or speech by Alice Walker containing this quotation.

Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.

Quote Origin: I Think There Is a World Market for About Five Computers

Thomas J. Watson Sr.? Thomas J. Watson Jr.? Howard H. Aiken? Harold Bergstein? J. Presper Eckert? John Mauchly? Chris Morgan? David Langford? Apocryphal?

**ENIAC (Electronic Numerical Integrator and Computer)**

Question for Quote Investigator: Collections of boneheaded predictions are popular with people who enjoy laughter combined with commiseration or superiority.

Computers were extraordinarily expensive in the 1950s. First-generation machines used vacuum tubes which were fragile and unreliable. The leader of IBM supposedly said:

I think there is a world market for about five computers.

I have been unable to find a solid citation for this attribution. Would you please explore his topic?

Reply from Quote Investigator: The notion that the market for early computers would be strictly capped has been linked to several pioneers in the development and commercialization of computers.

Thomas J. Watson Sr. was the President of IBM in 1924. He remained the leader until a transition period began in 1952 when Thomas J. Watson Jr. became the President of IBM. In 1956 Watson Sr. died and Watson Jr. became CEO. Watson Jr. continued as the leader up to 1971. He died in 1993.

Researchers have been unable to find substantive evidence supporting the attribution to either man. IBM corporation received many inquiries about this topic and performed a search in corporate documents.

IBM determined that Thomas J. Watson Jr. discussed a forthcoming computer model called the 701 Electronic Data Processing Machine during an annual meeting in 1953. A team of salespeople and Watson Jr. visited potential customers, and Watson Jr. stated, “… we expected to get orders for five machines, we came home with orders for 18”.

The German magazine “Der Spiegel” published a piece about computers in 1965. While discussing Thomas J. Watson Jr. and the demand for these massive machines the magazine wrote, “Watson estimated the US economy’s need at no more than five.”

Howard H. Aiken was the main designer of IBM’s Harvard Mark I, one of the earliest general-purpose electromechanical computers. The Mark I began operating in 1945. There is evidence that Aiken believed that very few computers were needed based on the 1944 citation given further below.

J. Presper Eckert and John Mauchly designed ENIAC, the first general-purpose electronic digital computer which was completed in 1945. The duo discussed the saying during a 1962 interview in the magazine “Datamation” which is covered further below.

Here is an overview displaying dates, excerpts, and attributions.

Quote Origin: All True Stories End in Death

Ernest Hemingway? Lionel Trilling? Ladislaus Boros? Larry Williams? Apocryphal?

**Painting “Sleep and His Half Brother Death” by John William Waterhouse**

Question for Quote Investigator: U.S. novelist Ernest Hemingway has been credited with the following fatalistic remark:

All true stories end in death.

I have been unable to find this precise statement in Hemingway’s oeuvre. Apparently, he employed a different phrasing. Would you please help me find the correct statement together with a citation?

Reply from Quote Investigator: In 1932 Ernest Hemingway published “Death in the Afternoon” which examined Spanish bullfighting. Hemingway discussed the mating of bulls and cows. He suggested that a bull which refused to mate with multiple cows would be sent to the bullring which meant death. A woman suggested that this topic was sad. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:¹

I find that a sad story, sir.
Madame, all stories, if continued far enough, end in death, and he is no true-story teller who would keep that from you. Especially do all stories of monogamy end in death, and your man who is monogamous while he often lives most happily, dies in the most lonely fashion. There is no lonelier man in death, except the suicide, than that man who has lived many years with a good wife and then outlived her. If two people love each other there can be no happy end to it.

Over time, Hemingway’s quotation has been streamlined to yield the concise version. Here is an overview of this saying together with variants, dates, and attributions:

1932: Madame, all stories, if continued far enough, end in death (Ernest Hemingway)

1954: All stories end in death (Attributed to Ernest Hemingway)

1965: The best love-stories end in death (Ladislaus Boros — translated from German to English)

1966: All stories end in death (Attributed to Ernest Hemingway)

1967: All great love stories end in death (Lionel Trilling)

1971 Nov: Every true story ends in death (Attributed to Ernest Hemingway)

1971 Dec: All true stories end in death (Attributed to Ernest Hemingway)

2001: All true stories end in death (Attributed to Ernest Hemingway)

Below are details for selected citations in chronological order.

Quote Origin: It Ain’t Bragging If You Can Do It

Dizzy Dean? Muhammad Ali? Sonny Liston? Reggie Jackson? Babe Ruth? Anonymous?

**Picture of a baseball stadium from Unsplash**

Question for Quote Investigator: Unfounded boasts are criticized, but an individual who sets and accomplishes an audacious goal can win praise. Here are three versions of a pertinent saying:

(1) It ain’t bragging if you can do it.
(2) It ain’t bragging when you can do it.
(3) It ain’t bragging if it’s true.

This saying has been attributed to three baseball players: Dizzy Dean. Reggie Jackson, and Babe Ruth. It has also been credited to two boxers: Muhammad Ali and Sonny Liston. Would you please explore this topic?

Reply from Quote Investigator: U.S. professional baseball pitcher Jay Hanna Dean was known by his nickname Dizzy Dean. In 1934 he published an article in several newspapers which discussed bragging. Dean communicated the central idea of the saying, but he employed a different phrasing:¹

There’s one thing about us Deans. Some people think we do a lot of bragging, but we don’t figure it’s bragging. When we say we’re good we say it because we believe it down in our hearts and I—I kinda think you could get a pretty good argument out of Mickey Cochrane if you tried to tell him that we weren’t so hot as pitchers.

What I started to say, though, was that we don’t brag. Whenever we say we’re going to do something we go out and do it.

Dizzy Dean’s extraordinary pitching performance helped his team, the St. Louis Cardinals, win the National League pennant and the World Series in 1934. QI believes that Dean’s essay was condensed and paraphrased over time to yield the sayings attributed to Dean. Below is an overview showing the evolution of the phrase together with dates and attributions.

1934: We don’t brag. Whenever we say we’re going to do something we go out and do it. (Dizzy Dean)

1935: It’s not bragging when a fellow can back up anything he says. (Attributed to Dizzy Dean)

1943: If I can do what I say, it ain’t bragging, is it? (Attributed to Dizzy Dean)

1951: It ain’t bragging when you can back it up. (Attributed to Dizzy Dean)

1958: It ain’t bragging when you can do it. (Attributed to Dizzy Dean)

1959: It ain’t bragging if you can do it! (Attributed to Dizzy Dean)

1962: It ain’t bragging if you can do it. (Anonymous “old adage”)

1966: It ain’t bragging when you done done it. (Attributed to Dizzy Dean)

1968: If I tell the truth. It sounds like bragging. And if I don’t, I’m lying. (Sonny Liston)

1973: It ain’t bragging if you can do it. (Attributed to Muhammad Ali)

1974: It ain’t bragging if it’s true. (Attributed to Dizzy Dean)

1976: If you do it, it ain’t bragging. (A profound philosopher)

1990: It ain’t bragging when you can do it. (Attributed to Reggie Jackson)

1994: It ain’t bragging if you can do it. (Attributed to Babe Ruth)

2007: It’s not bragging if you can back it up. (Attributed to Muhammad Ali)

Below are details for selected citations in chronological order.

Quote Origin: I Find Ecstasy in Living; the Mere Sense of Living Is Joy Enough

Emily Dickinson? Thomas Wentworth Higginson? Mabel Loomis Todd? M. Lincoln Schuster? Apocryphal?

**Photogravure of Emily Dickinson by artist Laura Coombs Hill**

Question for Quote Investigator: A prominent literary figure was asked about her life experiences, and she responded emphatically:

I find ecstasy in living; the mere sense of living is joy enough.

This remark has been attributed to nineteenth-century poet Emily Dickinson. Some sources claim that Dickinson wrote this statement in a letter, but I cannot find that letter, and I am skeptical. Would you please help me to find a citation?

Reply from Quote Investigator: Unitarian minister Thomas Wentworth Higginson was a literary mentor to Emily Dickinson. He visited her in August 1870, and he wrote about the event in “The Atlantic Monthly” in 1891. Dickinson’s comments to Higginson indicated that her experiences in life were invigorating. The word “ecstasy” was spelled as “ecstacy” in the following excerpt from the magazine text:¹

She went on talking constantly and saying, in the midst of narrative, things quaint and aphoristic. “Is it oblivion or absorption when things pass from our minds?” “Truth is such a rare thing, it is delightful to tell it.” “I find ecstacy in living; the mere sense of living is joy enough.”

Dickinson told Higginson about her method for recognizing poetry:

“If I read a book and it makes my whole body so cold no fire can ever warm me, I know that is poetry. If I feel physically as if the top of my head were taken off, I know that is poetry. These are the only ways I know it. Is there any other way?”

Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.

Quote Origin: When a Shoeshine Boy Knows as Much as I Do About the Stock Market It’s Time for Me to Get Out

Joseph P. Kennedy Sr.? Bernard Baruch? Joseph F. Dinneen? Apocryphal?

Question for Quote Investigator: Prescient investors pulled their money out of the U.S. stock market shortly before the crash of 1929. According to a Wall Street legend, a financier who received a stock tip from a shoeshine boy experienced the following epiphany:

When a shoeshine boy knows as much as I do about the stock market it’s time for me to get out.

I do not know the exact phrasing of this quotation, and this tale might be apocryphal. The story has been attributed to U.S. businessman Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. and U.S. financier Bernard Baruch. Would you please explore this topic?

Reply from Quote Investigator: The earliest match known to QI appeared in the 1959 book “The Kennedy Family” by journalist Joseph F. Dinneen. The book asserted that Joseph P. Kennedy Sr. started removing his money from the U.S. stock market in August 1929.

Kennedy did not fully explain his behavior at that time. The stock market catastrophically crashed in October 1929. Time passed, and a newsperson inquired about Kennedy’s foresight:¹

“How did that come about, Joe?” a reporter asked him years later.

“Very simply,” he said. “I dropped in at a shoeshine parlor on Wall Street. The boy who shined my shoes did not know me. He wasn’t fishing for information or looking for a market tip. He was the average wage earner or salaried employee playing the market like everybody else in that day. He looked up at me as he snapped the cloth over my shoes and told me what was going to happen to various stocks and offerings on the market that day.

“I listened as I looked down at him, and when I left the place I thought: ‘When a time comes that a shoeshine boy knows as much as I do about what is going on in the stock market, tells me so and is entirely correct, there is something the matter either with me or with the market and it’s time for me to get out,’ and I did.”

The author Joseph F. Dinneen was a long-time reporter for “The Boston Globe” of Massachusetts. Dinneen did not indicate when Kennedy delivered his explanation. Also, Dinneen did not specify the name of the reporter to whom Kennedy spoke. Perhaps it was Dinneen himself. The thirty-year delay between the crash and the publication of Dinneen’s book was substantial.

Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.

Quote Origin: When People Show You Who They Are, Believe Them, the First Time

Maya Angelou? Oprah Winfrey? Apocryphal?

**Theater masks depicting Comedy and Tragedy from Pixabay**

Question for Quote Investigator: The true character of a person cannot be hidden for a lengthy period behind a mask of deception. Here are two versions of a pertinent saying:

(1) When people show you who they are, believe them the first time.
(2) When someone shows you who they are the first time, believe them.

This notion has been attributed to writer Maya Angelou and entrepreneur Oprah Winfrey. Would you please explore this topic?

Reply from Quote Investigator: The earliest match found by QI occurred in a commencement address delivered by Oprah Winfrey at Wellesley College in Massachusetts in May 1997. Winfrey credited the expression to Maya Angelou. Winfrey spoke about relationships in the following passage from her speech. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:¹

One of the other great lessons I learned taught to me by my friend and mentor, Maya Angelou and if you can get this, you can save yourself a lot of time … Remember this because this will happen many times in your life.

When people show you who they are, believe them, the first time. Not the 29th time! That is particularly good when it comes to men situations because when he doesn’t call back the first time, when you are mistreated the first time, when you see someone who shows you a lack of integrity or dishonesty the first time, know that that will be followed by many, many, many other times that will at some point in life come back to haunt or hurt you. When people show you who they are, believe them, the first time. Live your life from truth and you will survive everything, everything, I believe even death.

Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.

Quote Origin: When the Bird and the Book Disagree, Always Believe the Bird

John James Audubon? Joseph Cornell? Patricia Holt? Jack Barclay? Birdwatcher’s Proverb? Jack Kornfield? Anonymous?

**Illustration of a Winter Hawk by John James Audubon**

Question for Quote Investigator: Much of our knowledge is obtained indirectly through reference books and instruction manuals. Yet, direct observation provides a more accurate guide. Here is pertinent saying from the domain of ornithology:

When the bird and the book disagree, always believe the bird.

This statement has been attributed to the prominent artist and naturalist John James Audubon, but I have not seen a solid citation, and I am skeptical. Would you please explore the provenance of this expression?

Reply from Quote Investigator: QI has not found any substantive evidence supporting the ascription to John James Audubon who died in 1851.

The earliest match found by QI appeared in the 1987 book “Listening to Nature: How to Deepen Your Awareness of Nature” by Joseph Cornell. The saying appeared as an epigram for section fifteen. Boldface added to excerpts by QI:¹

“When the bird and the book disagree, always believe the bird.”
—Birdwatcher’s Proverb

Thus, Joseph Cornell helped to popularize this saying, but the originator remains anonymous.

Below are additional selected citations in chronological order.